Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Western Australia

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Yagan Mia - meaning

Input is sought at Talk:Wireless Hill Park § Yagan Mia - meaning. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:13, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

File:Mullaloo Beach.jpg

Can you identify thus beach?

An IP is claiming that File:Mullaloo Beach.jpg isn't actually the right location. The image is used here and on Wikidata. If incorrect it will need to be removed from usage and renamed on Commons. Commander Keane (talk) 05:40, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Looks like a shot from near the North Mullaloo Beach look out. Hack (talk) 07:29, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Clearly from there. The shape of the beach, the carpark in the distance, even the number of windows on the white flat roof house on the left match google maps exactly. The-Pope (talk) 16:03, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Recent change

A change in the main list of caves of sunny west oz has been moved, without discussion, fellow editors understanding of the change would be appreciated. List_of_karst_features_in_Western_Australia JarrahTree 01:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I made this change based on the difference in scope between the lede and the list's name. Should have left a move summary, sorry.

Kingsmasher678 (talk) 01:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Moves like that should have had a notification here, simply out of courtesy. Also the terminology and explanation in the lead paragraph is not something that is slipped between. A list of caves is in reality different from a list of the karst features, and should be kept separate. JarrahTree 05:14, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Have you read the article in question? Genuinely asking, because I was simply retitling what was already present. I did not create a new list, the current one was mistitled and didn't match what the title said it was. If you have an issue with the content you are welcome to change it to only have caves in it, then revert the move.

Kingsmasher678 (talk) 05:30, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I have been very aware of the list since it was first created:

13:24, 3 April 2007 Hesperian talk contribs  21,661 bytes +21,661  ←Created page with 'This is a list of caves in Western Australia'. It includes all named caves that occur in the Australian Speleological Federation Karst Index Database (KID)...

I would consider that the edits since 2007 and clarification of the karst features over time have made it a problematic list, in that it was created with claimed named caves, and it has evolved into identification of karst features... JarrahTree 05:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I see! I'll take a look at it in the morning, it is quite late my time.

Kingsmasher678 (talk) 05:57, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• It appears to me that this Karst(what ever that is) list is something that should be on Wikidata, return this to a list of named caves. Gnangarra 12:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

User:JarrahTree

It is with a sad heart that I inform the Western Australian contributors of the sudden passing of JarrahTree. Please email me if wish to attend the funeral, otherwise we can dedicate Dec 15 meetup to reflecting on what JarrahTree has done over the last 19 years, 6 months, 1 week and 1 day. Gnangarra 07:20, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Memorial Service for JarrahTree

Wikimedia Australia is supporting JarrahTree's family to stream his memorial service on 20th December at 10am Australian Western Standard Time(AWST) details are at https://wikimedia.org.au/wiki/Memorial_Service_for_JarrahTree . Emails to the family expressing condolences or sharing memories can sent via this link as well.

For those in Perth who wish to attend in person please email me and I will share the details rather than post a private address here. Gnangarra 10:12, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Excessive out-of-scope information and SYN on Esperance articles re traditional ownership

Regarding my recent reverted changes to Merivale, Myrup, Sinclair, Monjingup, Windabout, and using Merivale as an example ...

(1) The text

The traditional lands of the Wudjari and Njunga people, both of the Noongar nation, occupy most of the Shire of Esperance, including the area around Esperance. The eastern tribes of the Wudjari, the Njunga, are seen as a separate people for cultural reasons, having adopted different cultural practices. The Young River, in the west of the shire, forms the boundary between the two groups

is interesting, but off-topic in this article (note the absence of the article's subject "Merivale" in that text), independently of sourcing or synthesis, which is why I removed it. It certainly belongs in Shire of Esperance (which currently has most of that information, except "Young River"), but not in every locality article. I again propose that it should be removed.

(2) The statement (Calistemon's words, or mine) that

... Merivale are on the traditional land of the latter [Njunga].

or

Merivale is on the traditional land of the Njunga.

is synthesis because none of the references say that. WP:SYNTH says, with my emphasis here:

If one reliable source says A and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C not mentioned by either of the sources.

I invite Calistemon, or anyone else, to provide a reliable source that says "Merivale is on Njunga land", or the "reliable source has published the same argument concerning the topic of the article".

Both (1) and (2) apply equally to Wittenoom Hills, Neridup, Mount Ney, Esperance (suburb), which have identical wording. Both issues may also apply - to some extent - to other articles under Category:Esperance, Western Australia, but I haven't yet checked the details.

In some cases an appropriate specific source may exist. For example https://www.boodjar.sis.uwa.edu.au/language-region-njunga explicitly shows Myrup on Njunga land, but even then we're assuming (albeit probably reasonably) that the Noongar-named place is the same place as the English-named Myrup, Western Australia. Possibly better is https://www.boodjar.sis.uwa.edu.au/__media_downloads/131390/Nyungar%20Boodjera%20Wangkiny%20final%2020141.pdf (from https://www.boodjar.sis.uwa.edu.au/information-and-resources), which "identified official geographical names of places in the Southwest of WA derived from Nyungar language", and which includes Myrup and Neridup. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:10, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

borders are not solidified as Tindale implied that different groups often shared areas on both sides of what Tindale drew as the line. The English named places are the Nyungar names for the same place. Gnangarra 08:39, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

borders are not solidified as Tindale implied — Agreed. If we delete the excess text per (1) above (example) the the exact details of the borders are not so important.
different groups often shared areas on both sides of [Tindale's line] — If appropriate (and sourced) we can of course say for example "LocalityName is on the traditional lands of both the Xxx and Yyy peoples", again without having to worry too much about a "blurred line" border.
Mitch Ames (talk) 08:54, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I've added the www.boodjar.sis.uwa.edu.au references to Myrup and Neridup (without changing the article text), which resolves the issue of SYN for those article, but I still maintain my stance of (1). Mitch Ames (talk) 08:43, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Njunga's land stretches From Young River east to Israelite Bay along the coast and inland for about 30 miles (50 km.).[1] Merivale is in-between Young River and Israelite Bay, therefore it is in Njunga land.

One of the sources that you gave[2] shows that the location of Merivale (even if it isn't written on the map) is clearly in Njunga land.

I think the source supports the claim made in the article for the same reasons given in SYNTH is not obvious (II) and SYNTH is not unpublishably unoriginal.

FropFrop (talk) 10:39, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I can agree with the point about some of the content being out of scope. A bit of rewording to make the focus solely on the Njunga people, and not the Wudjari, and I'd see no issue with what Calistemon has written.

FropFrop (talk) 10:48, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

One of the sources ... shows that the location of Merivale (even if it isn't written on the map) is clearly ... — I suggest that if Merivale is not shown on the map then that map does not "clearly" show anything about Merivale.

SYNTH is not obvious (II) and SYNTH is not unpublishably unoriginal — I appreciate the sentiment, but remember that SYNTH is a policy, whereas WP:SYNTHNOT is only an essay. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:22, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I suggest that if Merivale is not shown on the map then that map does not "clearly" show anything about Merivale. I think that a bit unreasonable as we can see other locations and we know their relative position to Merivale. Under what scenario could it be anywhere other than we'd expect it to be? In any case, the other sources also support what Calistemon has written.

Remember that policies are not actually policy and should not be treated as such. If a strict interpretation of a policy results in situations that reduce the quality of Wikipedia, then it should be ignored. If editors disagree over whether or not it reduces the quality, then it should be discussed, like we are doing now. See WP:NOTLAW. Essays often describe scenarios, such as this, that are exceptions to a literal reading of policy.

FropFrop (talk) 01:40, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I think that a bit unreasonable — Perhaps we both have different interpretations of the word "clearly" in your post...

In any case, the other sources also support what Calistemon has written — The Shire's acknowledgement of country contradicts Calistemon's text, in that the Shire does not mention include Njunga. Likewise the Map of Indigenous Australia.

If a ... a policy ... reduce the quality of Wikipedia, then it should be ignored. — I'm aware of WP:IAR. However in this case ignoring the rules and doing synthesis has given us a statement in the articles ("Merivale is on Njunga land") that is apparently contradicted by seemingly reliable sources [3][4]. I don't think that is improving Wikpedia. We need to do better. Mitch Ames (talk) 05:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi @Mitch Ames:, here is a bit of a run down:

Excessive: I think exactly the opposite is the case, the coverage of indigenous history in WA is completely lacking in articles on places. You pick a random location (LGA, town, suburb, locality, etc.) and chances are, the history section starts with white settlement, no people prior to that mentioned, leaving the (wrong) impression that the land the specific place is on was unoccupied prior to European arrival. Not sure that this complies with WP:NPOV. Secondly, given that the history of the indigenous people of WA potentially goes back a considerable number of years, two sentences on it are probably not excessive either. Again, Wikipedia's coverage on this topic is not great, according to Timeline of Aboriginal history of Western Australia, the Aboriginal history of Western Australia began in 1629! So, to the point, having two or three sentences on the first people of a location in WA that have been there for a reasonably long time is not excessive in my view, but that is just my take on it.

Reliable sources on whose traditional land a town, locality or suburb in the Shire of Esperance is on:

• Let's start with the Shire of Esperance: The Shire of Esperance acknowledges the Kepa Kurl Wudjari people of the Nyungar nation and Ngadju people who are the traditional custodians of this land. That pretty much covers it at large, whatever town, suburb or locality is within the shire is on the land of either of the two. Bit broad, but a start, many shires don't even have that much information on their website!
• Enough natural features and major towns are shown on the Map of Indigenous Australia to see how are traditional lands extend. Especially the articles about suburbs and close localities of Esperance can be cross referenced to that map to identify which land they are on. Note that the map does not differentiate the Njunga from the Wudjari. From what I can gather from the other sources, this differentiation is a more modern concept, past the 1994 date of the map.
• The location section of the Wudjari makes it clear how far there traditional lands extended. I won't list them all here but a clear outline is stated. I leave it up to you to pot these points of reference on a map and find out what is inside and what is not.
• Same goes for the Njunga. Both the Njunga and Wudjari article make it clear that the two were once one and split in the relatively recent past, which complicates matters. But this has to be explained somehow in the articles, otherwise it's just more confusing. That does add to the length of the section, I admit.
• The source Mitch has added is good to an extend but the maps it uses are not good for identifying natural features, so I haven't used it much of late. But I have used it in the past.

So, here are the sources I have used establishing whose traditional land a town, suburb or locality in the Shire of Esperance is on, and that is sometimes more than one people. If I made a mistake and got the wrong people, that is possible, I make mistakes quite regularly and I have to own that. But the sources are certainly there to support where a certain place is located if one makes the effort to read them in detail and compare them to each other, map and all.

End of story. You can remove it all if you wish, Mitch. I tried to cover the indigenous history of these places as best as I could but I'm no expert and I'm not sure I will try again! Calistemon (talk) 11:00, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd strongly object to the content being removed, it's important and relevant.

FropFrop (talk) 11:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree 2-3 sentences in what is a stub article is not excessive by any measure. As both communities have a connection to the country neither should be removed. Gnangarra 12:57, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Excessive ... pick a random location (LGA, town, suburb, locality, etc...) — The problem I see at the moment is that I pick a random locality, Merivale, and I see (in the paragraph I removed most of) a lot of general text about places (most of the Shire of Esperance, the Young River) and people (the Wudjari west of the river) that are not Merivale or the traditional owners (Njunga) of Merivale. The information that I removed is important, but not in those specific articles - it belongs in Shire of Esperance and/or articles about those people (where it may already be, at least in part).

Reliable sources — Just to be clear, I am not generally disputing the sources cited in the article, I am saying that combining information from them is SYNTH, because not one of those sources say (eg) "Merivale is on Njunga country".

The Shire of Esperance acknowledges the Kepa Kurl Wudjari ... and Ngadju ... — but not the Njunga, which is what the articles are saying.

Enough natural features and major towns are shown on the Map of Indigenous Australia to see how are traditional lands extend — Except the traditional land of the Njunga, which does not appear on that map at all.

The location section of the Wudjari makes it clear how far there traditional lands extended. — The articles in question are about places purportedly on Njunga land, so the extent of Wudjari land is not useful here.

... Njunga and Wudjari ... were once one and split in the relatively recent past, ... this has to be explained somehow in the articles — This is the crux of the matter. The fact that Wikipedia has to explain that split for the article to make sense is clear evidence of WP:SYNTH. What we must do is cite a reference that explains it. Per WP:SYNTH: "A and B, therefore, C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument concerning the topic of the article."

The source Mitch has added ... the maps it uses are not good for identifying natural features... — True, but it does unambiguously say that Myrup and Neridup (and others) are in Njunga country, eliminating the SYNTH. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

While it is very important to acknowledge history prior to white settlement, I agree with Mitch that the level of detail is not necessary and probably more suited to an article like Shire of Esperance that describes a broader geographic area. Unless there is a particular significant event, named landmark or feature directly proximate to modern towns or localities, it should be sufficient to acknowledge that the modern locality exists on the traditional lands of the eg. Njunga/Wudjari people. Traditional boundaries etc would be better covered in the articles on these indigneous clans and nations, or elsewhere such as a separate geography subsection if its contentious or requires elaboration.

I'd definitely support more consistency in covering Aboriginal history Australia-wide! In some cases, like the suburb of Franklin, Australian Capital Territory, there is a significant cultural site (Gubur Dhaura) which now forms a park within the suburb that was developed around it. The history of this site is well documented in reliable, secondary sources but is barely mentioned in the article. The same for Tingha, New South Wales where there is a well documented women's ceremonial site that could be added to the history section of that town's article. However, while I appreciate Calistemon's efforts, I don't think it necessary to provide so much detail for individual villages unless there is a clear and specific reason, supported by WP:RS like any other content. Dfadden (talk) 13:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

@Dfadden: The Aboriginal heritage inquiry system for WA provides this map. You can enable layers on it that show LGAs, towns and localities, which is what this discussion is about. In my opinion, it shows an impressive amount of sites for the Shire of Esperance and, really, for WA. I knew of its existence but, until now, never appreciated it's significance as a possible RS source, especially as sites could potentially be listed under the individual localities or towns. It has a lot of potential. I leave it up to yourself whether you think there are sufficient in number of sites in individual localities to be worth mentioning the indigenous heritage of these places. I do think there is. I know that, if these were State Register of Heritage Places sites, we would! Calistemon (talk) 00:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for that, it looks like an excellent resource! Its great for identifying which sites are within localities. I agree with your comparison to a state heritage register, although I've also seen inclusions challenged for relying solely on primary sources. I don't want to get into the debate around inclusions based solely on primary vs primary and secondary sources for verifiability here as there are bound to be differing views on this... But if it was up to me, I would use the map you provided as a basis for further research. If I could find additional secondary sources about sites identified on the map, I would definitely include them! Dfadden (talk) 04:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

You can enable layers on it that show LGAs, towns and localities, which is what this discussion is about — Does the map show traditional ownership, eg "Njunga country" etc, eg like [5][6]? Aside from the level of detail to include in the article, the discussion is primarily about whose country a specific town or locality is on. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Comment: I agree generally with Mitch Ames and Dfadden. For (eg) the Merivale article, if someone can find a single reliable source saying, or indicating by a map (I often use a map as a reliable source), that 'Merivale is on the traditional land of the Njunga,' then such a statement should be included in the article. Otherwise, I'd exclude the whole paragraph. Bahnfrend (talk) 13:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I propose this wording, for Merivale and those articles (listed in my original post) with the identically worded paragraph.

Merivale is on the traditional land of the Njunga people of the Noongar nation. The Njunga were previously part of the Wudjari Noongar, but separated from them for cultural reasons.

(I think it quite important to mention here approximately when the Njunga and Wudjari split - I am assuming that it was relatively recently. As has been pointed out, the Noongar have been in the area much longer than white men, and much longer than Merivale, so in the context of an article about Merivale, I think it matters whether that split happened before (especially long before) the white man "created" Merivale, or after. If nothing else that knowledge will help make sense of older references that don't mention Njunga.)

This:

• Focuses on stating who are the traditional owners of the specific locality that is the subject of the article, leaving the details of the rest of the Shire to other more relevant articles (Shire of Esperance, Njunga, Wudjari)
• Covers both Wudjari and Njunga, which is more important if the split between them happened relatively recently
• Briefly mentions the split, leaving the details in the Njunga and Wudjari (and possibly Shire of Esperance articles), where they belong.

It addresses my original issue (1) Excessive out-of-scope information.

It does not address issue (2) SYNTH (except for Myrup and Neridup, which now have an explicit reference), but we can continue to work on that. Mitch Ames (talk) 14:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I think this a fine proposal.

FropFrop (talk) 01:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

No objections from me either. Dfadden (talk) 12:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)